1. Ota Said,

   Is New Chapter’s Host Defense product considered a bacterial soil organism?

2. JINI Said,

   No, it is a mushroom extract product.

   It does not contain any bacteria.

3. Leah Sparks Said,

   Are the Natren products, specifically Healthy Trinity and Life Start 2, missing any necessary strains of pro-biotics? Primal Defense Ultra lists so many, and there are so few in the Natren products. Please explain.

4. Leah Sparks Said,

   What are the advantages/disadvantages of both Seagate olive leaf extract versus wild oregano oil?

5. JINI Said,

   Hi Leah,

   Natren probiotics contain only transient (non-spore forming) food-based probiotics. And no they do not contain every species of probiotic found in the human gut – that would be thousands! They just contain the main species that have been found to be the most beneficial in clinical trials, and have also been consumed by humans for thousands of years. So they have a long safety record.

   Primal Defense contain soil-based organisms, which have no long-term record of safety for human consumption at this time.

   Some people find olive leaf is more palatable than wild oregano. However, if you know the easy way to take it, then wild oregano is actually easier to take. Here’s my video showing the easy, no-burning method:

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ryheQSdYHc

   In terms of strength or efficacy – I don’t know, there have been no comparison studies done that I know of.

   take care,
   Jini

6. What Is Lactobacillus sporogenes? | Listen To Your Gut Said,

   [...] Milk-cultured bacteria do not form spores and they do not remain permanently in your gut – this is why you have to keep consuming yoghurt, kefir, etc. daily. But soil bacteria ALL form spores and these spores remain in your gut and cannot be eradicated by any means identified to date. For a full outline of the possible dangers of consuming bacterial soil organisms, see my blog post about soil organisms. [...]

7. Karin Shainman Said,

   Would Primal Defense be an acceptable/advantageous probiotic for dogs, and how should it be given?

8. JINI Said,

   Bacterial Soil Organisms (which Primal Defense contains) are in experimental trials with animals in Europe – but they are being strictly regulated. Perhaps there are some results published by now – you would have to do an internet check.

   Common sense: Yes, in the wild, dogs would eat their raw meat as it lays on the ground and therefore would ingest some soil organisms – but would it be anywhere near the massive amounts contained in soil organism capsules? No.

   The healthiest thing you can do for your dog is to give it a predominantly raw food diet. And add fresh garlic directly to the food, both for immune defense and to ward off fleas. Start with a little bit (as many animals don’t like the taste) and then gradually build up to 1/4 tsp per 10 pounds of body weight.

9. mihal Said,

   Hi,

   Interesting article [and site-subbed btw].

   Could I ask about Solgar probiotics ?..or rather your opinion on the quality if thats alright ?..as I’ve never heard of Primal Defense- a USA product? , Solgar seems to be the main shelf dweller in the UK at least-for probiotics and vitamins etc..also they are suitably high priced so one would ‘hope’ they are of good quality.

   hope to hear from you soon.

   Mihal

10. JINI Said,

    Hi Mihal – ok, you’ve gotta tell me, what does “site-subbed” mean?

    Re. the probiotics, if you go to this post of mine and sign-up for the free ebook/report, in there I give you the Selection Criteria for therapeutic-grade probiotics (then you will be able to assess any probiotic you encounter:

    http://www.listen2yourgut.com/blog/gut/wild-oregano-oil-protocol-and-probiotic-enema/

    take care,
    Jini

11. mihal Said,

    hehe, I meant I have subscribed to the site, as in yours you know

    Ok have read quite a large amount of info thus far and get the jist of it..guess I really wanted the opinion of a more experienced person .

    I’ll be nipping off to the post you mention.
    best
    ~m

12. Bruce Said,

    I’ve been reading extensively about probiotic research, from a variety of sources and have a few hours of microbiology under my belt.

    I would be careful with blanket declarative statements such as “Primal Defense contain soil-based organisms, which have no long-term record of safety for human consumption at this time.”. -which is demonstrably false.

    I find much of this discussion above succumbs to mis-information and has really contributed to the “rife” misinformation out there.

    The studies listed above are not even done on SUBTILIS, which is the sporoforming bacterium found in Threelac and Primal Defense. To study other species and claim that they ALL have the same potential for adverse events is simply irresponsible.

    Humans have been using soil fermentation for millenia, even Natto famously was fermented with soil based species, popularized by Samurai in 1100 AD. Many, many other examples.

    Also, spore forming bacteria are almost never permanent residents of the GI tract. Also, the very first probiotic product in the US was said to be called “Bactid-Subtil” in 1946. Long history of use, of course Natasha doesn’t like them. But to conclude that her opinion is the only valid opinion is silly. Personally having sold probiotic products for decades, I can attest to Natren’s quality as I’ve seen people get seious results from Healthy Trinity and others, however I believe they are a poor value when one considers the volume of competing products – which I have often found equal or superior (including Primal Defense) for less than half the costs.

    In short, this article contributes to ignorance anfd obfuscates the complexity of probiosis. To characterize all bacillus cultures as if they are Anthrax’s cousin truly smacks of market competition rather than real science.

    Very poorly done.

13. JINI Said,

    Hi Bruce – if you look at the date on my original letter, it is 2003. Since then Primal Defense have removed the bacterial soil organisms from their product, until only the B. subtilis remains – and this is the species used to ferment natto. Whether they will change their formulation again, I don’t know. So always best to read labels.

    You write: “Also, spore forming bacteria are almost never permanent residents of the GI tract”

    But you give no studies or links to research to back up this assertion. And the spores really are the crux of the issue here: how do they behave? How do you kill them? What is their role in the gut microbiota?

    I hope there is more info on this now than there was in 2003! Please post any scientific, peer-reviewed data you find here…

14. Amy Said,

    Any thoughts on Dr. Ohirra’s formulas? I give these to my kids on a daily basis, would hate to think they are unsafe!

15. JINI Said,

    As far as I know, Dr. Ohhira’s are fine – they are from fermented foods – not soil organisms.

16. Jody Said,

    Dr Ohira’s probiotics contain enterococcus faecalis which is considered unsafe by many, including Natasha Trenev. I believe it is only approved for use in the US for vetenary use…

17. Randall Said,

    Why do you point to articles about Bacillus licheniformis? The product in question contains Bacillus subtilis. Bacillus subtilis is safe and was used by the medical community for many years prior to the introduction of cheap anti-biotics.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3100070

    I feel as though you are simply adding more confusion to the average consumer rather than helping them make a healthy decision as you claim. I would encourage anyone here to seek out actual medical advice.

    See also:
    Cohn F (1872). “Untersuchungen über Bacterien”. Beitr Biol Pflanzen 1 (Heft 1): 127–224.
    Ciprandi, G., A. Scordamaglia, D. Venuti, M. Caria, and G. W. Canonica. (1986). “In vitro effects of Bacillus subtilis on the immune response”. Chemioterapia 5 (6): 404–7. PMID 3100070.
    Shylakhovenko, V.A. (June 2003). “Anticancer and Immunostimulatory effects of Nucleoprotein Fraction of Bacillus subtilis”. Experimental Oncology 25: 119–123.
    Mazza, P. (1994). “The use of Bacillus subtilis as an antidiarrhoeal microorganism.”. Boll. Chim. Farm. 133 (1): 3–18. PMID 8166962.

18. JINI Said,

    Randall – notice the date on the post above: 2003.

    So the interesting thing is that most of the info in this post is indeed no longer applicable as Garden of Life has changed their product! And, as you point out, the ONLY (direct) soil organism it now contains is Bacillus subtilis – which has been used for over 1000 years by the Japanese to culture natto. So it has a long history of safety in this application.

    Bacillus licheniformis is now only used indirectly as part of the culturing medium of Primal Defense, but according to the product label it is no longer part of the HSO blend:

    http://www.evitamins.com/product.asp?pid=3504

    Interesting… and you have to wonder why Garden of Life changed the product – bad press, lawsuits, what? Whatever, it was done very quietly and I only became aware of it myself within the last year.

19. Tim Said,

    Has anyone heard of this new SBO product called Prescript-Assist Pro or Prescript-Assist? According to these two of the many sites selling this item, this product has research to back its claims:

    https://www.researchednutritionals.com/store/item.cfm?code=CRN121&cat=
    http://www.upwardquest.com/prescript-assist/index.html

    And here are the the actual studies:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16117982
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17692729

    “The manufacturer of Prescript-Assist™, Safer Medical, Inc., spent more than five years in Clinical Development Test and Evaluation (CDTE) testing the product against an array of intestinal tract issues before it was put on the market. There was a complete absence of any untoward side-effects with Prescript-Assist™ even when taken at the same time as prescription medications (which are often responsible for inducing gastrointestinal complications).”

    Here’s the company’s website: http://www.safermedicalinc.com/1136367.html

    And a better description of the product: http://safermedicalinc.info/safer-medical-inc-products.html

    “Ingredients:
    Each 600mg capsule of Prescript-Assist® contains a proprietary blend of Leonardite, and the following Class I (beneficial microorganisms): Anthrobacter agilis, Anthrobacter citreus, Anthrobacter globiformis, Anthrobacter luteus, Anthrobacter simplex, Acinetobacter calcoaceticus, Azotobacter chroococcum, Azotobacter paspali, Azospirillum brasiliense, Azospirillum lipoferum, Bacillus brevis, Bacillus marcerans, Bacillus pumilis, Bacillus polymyxa, Bacillus subtilis, Bacteroides lipolyticum, Bacteriodes succinogenes, Brevibacterium lipolyticum, Brevibacterium stationis, Kurtha zopfil, Myrothecium verrucaria, Pseudomonas calcis, Pseudomonas dentrificans, Pseudomonas flourescens, Pseudomonas glathei, Phanerochaete chrysosporium, Streptomyces fradiae, Streptomyces celluslosae, Streptomyces griseoflavus Forget about the grocery store or health food store’s probiotic aisle says Safer Medical Inc. You could buy them out and not get any of the real, clinically proven gut healing being offered here. Begin healing your gut for certain with Prescript-Assist!”

    This product may be “Safer” (as the company name implies) than SBOs of the past, but , more importantly, can such limited research support long-term use?

20. Arlo Boyt Said,

    Do you have any opinion or knowledge about these probiotic products called “EM” or “effective microrganisms”? It is grown in a molasses medium (and you could even do it yourself). There are a number of products out there that are of this type, including Emerald Earth and Pro-Em. They were created by Dr. Higa of Japan in 1982. Thank you, Arlo

21. JINI Said,

    Re. the EM probiotics – The interesting thing (I downloaded a bunch of company info pdfs) is that they refer to it as both a “soil-based microbial formula” and as “phototropic strain of bacteria”.

    When you type in “phototropic bacteria” to Google, nothing comes up. The only related thing is phototrophic bacteria (with an ‘h’), for example:

    http://mmbr.asm.org/cgi/content/full/62/3/695

    But the company literature spells it phototropic in every place it occurs. So is it a recurrent typo, or have they come up with their own name/branding (which has no relevance or meaning in microbiology)?

    If you wanted to research it further, you could type in the species of bacteria they claim is in there: Rhodopsuedomonas palustris and see if it exists, what it’s properties are, and most importantly: DOES IT HAVE ANY HISTORY OF LONG-TERM USAGE IN HUMANS?

    If not, if there are no clinical studies spanning at least 20-30 years of HUMAN use, then know you are participating in a complete experiment.

    Apply these rules to any new “probiotic” product – and you will see more and more of them on the market in the coming years – before you decide whether to participate in the experiment, or not.

22. Arlo Boyt Said,

    Jini,

    Thanks so much for your prompt and helpful reply (I’m now convinced, from your answer and my own trying EM for a few days that it’s not healthful). Just wondering…now that Primal Defense has changed it’s formula, as you have mentioned, do you think it is a helpful product now? And finally, is there any validlty to the idea of ingesting “soil organisms”, given that humans used to eat food that naturally had “dirt” on it?

    Thanks,
    Arlo

23. JINI Said,

    I lived in Tokyo for 2 years and let me tell you, people ate natto in VERY small amounts. Likewise, if you pull a carrot from the dirt, you brush off the dirt before you eat it – even as kids we didn’t like the grind of dirt on our teeth. Traditional cultures who buried meat or fish in the ground to ferment did not bury it bare – it was always wrapped in something, some kind of leaf usually. So you need to ask yourself: How much soil-based bacteria have humans traditionally consumed? I’m pretty sure it’s nowhere near the amounts in these soil-based supplements.

    So again, we get back to the same issue: Are these supplements good? Are they bad? At this point, there is not enough long-term data to make an assessment. So you need to decide for yourself and know that you are participating in an experiment.

24. Jess Said,

    PLease comment on Tim’s question about Prescript Assist Pro. It does have studies…

    Jess

25. Natalie Said,

    I recently purchased a bottle of Primal Defense Ultra from my local health food store as I am in need of a Candida cleanse (in hopes to get pregnant again in the near future!) Before I start the cleanse (I use a Phamax product), I thought I’d give the Primal Defense a try to see its effect on the candida as my local store really touts this brand (Garden of Life). However, my former ND is not a fan of the brand -doesn’t trust it- and I am cautious as I know Candda is a tricky thing and I don’t want to do anything to make it worse. I came across your article while doing some online searching. I don’t know much about HSO’s or how safe their product is currently but I was wondering if it is still something I should steer clear of…or if their product is now safe or even effective for candida. Pharmax also sells some human strain probiotics but they are too pricey for me. Which I guess is why I was going to give Primal Defense a try. Anyway, this product has nothing but glowing reviews online (esp. for GI/stomach issues…not sure about candida), but then I came across your article. You seem to be very knowledgable in this area. Any thoughts would be appreciated…!

26. JINI Said,

    I prefer Natren probiotics – Healthy Trinity if you can swallow capsules. Otherwise Dr. Ohira are your next best. This might be helpful for you:

    http://www.listen2yourgut.com/blog/help-for-stubborn-yeast-infections-candida-albicans/

27. JINI Said,

    Re. Pre-Script Assist – as Tim stated in #19 all of the research still does not cover LONG-TERM effects. So my hesitancies are the same as in my post above. Short-term gain for long-term…what?? We don’t know. And that’s the problem. Also, what happened to the original company – try to find them, it’s all a bit fishy. How did they get this product past FDA and Cda HPB? Look at what happened with Adya Clarity… At the end of the day, do your research and listen to your gut.

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